Dynomotion

Group: DynoMotion Message: 8883 From: darrengladysz Date: 1/13/2014
Subject: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


First off, congrats on the Konnect.  I believe that this will greatly enhance the kflop product range.


I have a kflop with a kanalog.  I wish to use this for a closed loop stepper system that will have 4 axes.  The steppers drives will be the Intelligent Motion IM804 and IM483 which, if I understand correctly, are open collectors.  


I understand that JP7 and JP5 on Kflop are normally used for stepper output but these are taken for Kanalog.  I also understand that I can multiplex the outputs to JP4 and JP6 on Kflop but that these cannot all be used as the IM804 and IM483 are open collector.


Is there a solution to get 4 axis closed loop stepper other than purchasing Kstep?


I was reading the posts in the forum.  Am I to understand that you can re-route JP5 to JP4/JP6 on Kflop in which case I would be able to use the Jp5 outputs to drives the steppers.  If so, how can I do this and what do I need to implement in my C program and in KMotionCNC (the init file).


Also, is there an issue with using JP5 with open collectors?


Thanks


Darren
Group: DynoMotion Message: 8884 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 1/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers
Hi Darren,

I couldn't find a clear spec on the input voltage requirement for those, but they may work connected to a LVTTL if their Opto Supply terminal is connected to 3.3V instead of 5V.

Actually one axis on JP4 and one on JP6 can be used in open collector mode.

How many differential encoder inputs on Kanalog are you using?  If 8 or less then you can use KFLOP JP5 for 4 open collector Step/Dir axes.  See:

http://dynomotion.com/faq.html#third_party_step

How many axes do you need?

Actually the Mux option for the Step/Dir generators moves the outputs from JP7 to JP4 and JP6.  The Outputs on JP5 remain on JP5.  See:
http://dynomotion.com/Help/StepAndDirection/StepAndDir.htm

HTH
Regards
TK


Group: DynoMotion Message: 8885 From: darrengladysz Date: 1/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


As always, thanks for the quick response.


It is a 3 axis mill with a rotary table.  4 axis total, each axis needing a closed loop step/direction and 1 encoder as feedback.  So to confirm, 4 axis closed loop step/dir output and 4 encoder inputs.


I will disconnect the rj-45 from kanalog to kflop and try this as I only need 4 axis.



Thanks again
Group: DynoMotion Message: 11455 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom


Hope you are well.


I am having problems getting stepper drivers working with Kflop.  I tried using applied motion step drivers, im804 and im483.  I have these wired exactly as you do in your instructions and video but none of these work!


I have swapped the power supplies and the issue persists.  I have checked the motors for shortage and they seem ok as well.


I am using klop with kanalog as well as using a breakout board for jp12 (I do not know if this has an impact).


I am running the step/direction signals from jp5 on kflp as I wish to use closed loop steppers and shall use encoders 0-3 on kanalag.


You had provided me a link to the faq as follows: Step and Direction Setup


I read it several times but do not believe I have forgotten or missed any step or configurations.


I am still at the set up stages in kmotion and have not generated a config file.  Although I wish to use the steppers with encoders, for now, I am simply setting them up in open loop to test the system. 


Do I need to do anything special to use jp5 for stepper outputs as open collectors?  Also, am I correct in understanding that jp5 uses only outputs 4-7?  


I have searched the forum and googled the issue but I am running out of options to check what could be wrong.  Can it be there is an issue with the kflop board?  I had issues getting servos to work with this board in the past. 


Also, do I need to worry about the pid variables for steppers, I note that you have them set to 1,0,0 or for that matter the max limits?  Also, I am using the same board as you did, namely the im804.  Did you need to change the step pulse width?


Lastly what is the difference between step/dir and microstep in the output options? Also is there a difference between selecting move or step when using steppers?


Sorry about he questions but I cannot get the any of the axis to work.Any help and/or suggestions would be great as I have hit a brick wall with this issue.


Thanks
Group: DynoMotion Message: 11456 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers
Hi Darren,

Do you have specifications for the drives?

How did you wire them?

If the drives are powered and enabled the motors should hold position even with out any Step or Direction Pulses.

How did you configure the axes?

You should use Step Dir Output mode (Microstep is for Current Sinewaves with a SnapAmp).

Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 11457 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


Your response time is excellent as usual.


Here is the link for the applied motion drive.  http://www.applied-motion.com/sites/default/files/2035_2035-O_Users_Manual.pdf


It is 2a per phase whereas the motors are 4a.  This is only used for testing/troubleshooting.  Basic wiring is motor (a anot, b bnot as per manufacturer colors and specs) +5v, step and direction.  The supply is from unregulated supply.  Step down (600v to 120v) but used to step down 120v ac to 24ac, then a bridge regulator and then a bank of capacitors.  The transformer is 1500 va.  I am getting 30.1v dc at the end.


I connected +5v from from terminal strips shared 5v to +5v input on drive.  The +5v is also used by kflop with encoders.  I also connected step and dir using a network cable plugged into jp5 on kflop. 


For the im804 (same drive as your example link).  I connected the same as detailed above and same as in the example in your link. Motors, power supply as above.  Step and dir to jp5 and +5 from terminal strips. 


Here is the link for the drive: http://www.servovision.com/MC/im804.pdf


For configuration, I tried output channels 4, 5 and 6.  Did not play with pid settings, no limits options was selected (ie. watch limits was not enabled) and lastly raised outputs limits (for the pid loop) but do not believe this should have an effect.


Could not get this to work.


Sorry about this but I am running out of options.  The other kflop on my cnc router runs beautifully but I have been trying to get my mill going for the last year (on and off) but to no avail.  Tried servos (various drives) etc. and then steppers but to no avail.


Regards,
Group: DynoMotion Message: 11458 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers
Hi Darren,

"I connected +5v from from terminal strips shared 5v to +5v input on drive"

I don't understand that statement.  I assume maybe you are referring to the +5V Terminals on Kanalog?   I don't think the drives have any terminals marked +5V.  One has a terminal called "COM" did you mean you connected to there?  If so I believe that is correct.  The other Drive has a terminal marked "Opto Supply".  Did you mean this?  If I believe that would be correct.

Did you connect anything to the Enable input?  Are the drives enabled?  I believe the enable input would need to be pulled to GND (of the +5V Supply) to turn on the drive.  When the drives become enabled you should not be able to turn the motors with your fingers.  It is necessary to have the drives enabled and holding position before going on and trying to step the motor.  Check this and tell us if the motor is holding position.

Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 11459 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


Sorry for the confusion.  Yes I meant the +5v opto supply and by the shared part I meant the same power supply and +5v was used by kflop as well.


I presume that you are talking about the IM804.  The 804 is essentially the same as the IM805 but it is a cheaper version with less features.   I could not find a detailed IM804 manual but the IM805 manual link is as follows: http://motion.schneider-electric.com/downloads/manuals/im805.pdf 


My 804  drive only has the 8 pin option drive not the 34 pin so there is no COM or GROUND connector.  Also, the Enable, Reset, Fault and On full Step are optional (ie. not required to operate) Also, the ENABLE inputs works in reverse (page 46 of 74 of the manual).  Pulling it high or leaving it unconnected leaves the drive enabled and pulling it low disables the drive.   If you look at the video you post on this link: Step and Direction Setup


you will note that you do not have the enable connected and the motor spins.


It is the same for the applied motion drive.  There are only 3 pins.  STEP, DIR and COM (+5V supply).


I have read the manuals many times and can almost recite them at length by now :)


I will try swapping the motor to see if this works and see it the new one locks in place.  If this does not work then I do not know where the problem would lie other than maybe in software or configuration.  


Is there any way I  can verify that the kflop is outputting the signals to the step drives (I do not have an oscilloscope or test equipment other than a voltmeter).  


Also to confirm, pin 1 of jp5 is the one further from the edge and is for step and pin 2 is for direction.  I am hoping that my network connector is not inverting the wires but the connector transparent and the color of the wires seems to be the white wire before the colored wire (repeating this for each of the colors blue, green, orange brown).




Thanks 

Group: DynoMotion Message: 11460 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers
Hi Darren,

Thanks for the info.  As I tried to explain in the previous emails is that KFLOP and the Step and Direction wiring is absolutely not required for the motor to be energized with current and to hold position.  So please put KFLOP away for the moment.

All you should need for the motor to have holding torque is:

#1 the motor
#2 the drive
#3 the motor power supply

To avoid confusion let's just use one drive at a time (the IM804).  I believe you are correct that the drive will be enabled with the enable pin open.

I believe there is also a requirement of a resistor to set the current that the drive will send to the motor.  Do you have that installed?

If the drive still doesn't energize the motor then one or more of those 3 items is bad or they are not wired properly.  Since the PC and KFLOP is out of the picture it is impossible to be a software, configuration, or KFLOP problem.

You might also check your motor coil resistance.  It should be several ohms or less.

I will answer your other questions after we resolve this first step.

HTH
Regards
TH





Group: DynoMotion Message: 11461 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


Thanks for your patience.


I powered up the drives and in both cases (AMC) and the IM804 both held rigidly in place so that is working fine.  Without power, both shafts rotate freely and with power they stay firm in place.  


I did have the current limiting sense resistors for the IMS and the AMC has dip switches for this and both were set to match the motors.


BTW for testing I installed a replacement stepper on the AMC drive to rule out motor issues.


I checked the coil resistance and everything is fine and as per spec.  I have wired the steppers in series and they are double the nameplate and there are no shorts.


I went a bit further.  I could not get the IMS drive to move.  With the AMC drive (sorry about introducing the two drives but maybe this will help) I set it up as step/dir no input, no limits, and downloaded it to kflop.  I went to the  step response screen and set pid at 1,0,0, output at 2000 for each, vel and acc at 400 and hit "step".  The motor literally moved 1 step and then one step back.  This coincided most likely with the change in direction.  I tried this for the IMS804 but it did not work.


I will let you get some sleep and rest as I feel bad troubling you on a Sunday and we can look into this tomorrow if this is ok with you so we can see the next steps.


Thanks again


Regards,
Group: DynoMotion Message: 11463 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/4/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers
Hi Darren,

I thought you said previously that the motors were not holding?  Did you change something?

Assuming that the motors are in fact holding the next step would be to try Step pulses.  Direction is not important at this stage as the motor should still step one direction or the other.

With KFLOP's/Kanalog's +5V applied to the Drive's "Opto Supply" then shorting the Step input of the drive to KFLOP GND should cause the motor to make one or more steps each time it is shorted and unshorted.  One step may be difficult to see so you may need to feel the motor shaft or do a few steps to see any motion.

If this doesn't work - Stop.


Assuming that works connect the pin to KFLOP JP5 pin 1 and try the same thing by toggling the bit using KFLOP's Digital I/O Screen.  I/O 36 should be that pin.

It is important to cycle power on KFLOP and do not configure or enable any axes (if an axis is configured and enabled to drive those pins it will not be possible to toggle the pins manually).

On the Digital I/O screen set I/O 36 to be an output.  Uncheck the state (if not already unchecked) to drive it low.  It is important to understand that it is necessary to drive the pin in Open Collector Mode.  To do this toggle the "Output" checkbox on and off.   This will toggle between driving the pin low and not driving the pin at all (it will be an input).  This is different from setting the state high and low which will drive the pin to GND and to 3.3V.  Please respond if you understand the difference.  Each toggle should make one step.  

Many Ethernet cables cross over wires and are not likely to be 1:1 pinout.  Verify that the wire you are connecting to the Step Pin of the drive is actually connected to Pin 1 of JP5.  Pin 1 is the pin furthest from the edge of the board and nearest to the JP5 label.  With all power supplies off use an ohm meter to check continuity from the drive pin to the solder pad on KFLOP.

If this doesn't work - Stop. 

You should now be able to command a move.  On the Config/Flash Screen select the KFLOP Axis Channel that you wish to use for this motor.  Then select Load and select SimpleStepDirAxis0.mot.  Change Output Channel0 to 4.   Open the Step Response Screen and push "Move".  The motor should move.   PID Parameters have no effect on Step/Dir open loop mode of Output.  The only thing that has any effect are the V A J parameters to set the Velocity, Acceleration, and Jerk and the Size of the move commanded.

HTH
Regards
TK


Group: DynoMotion Message: 11467 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/4/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom,


I thank you very much for the detailed explanation and shall follow this later today.  I will keep you informed of the result.


Regards,
Group: DynoMotion Message: 11472 From: darrengladysz Date: 5/4/2015
Subject: Re: Kflop, Kanalog and steppers

Hi Tom


First off, thanks a million for the walk through and help.


I got the issue solved.  The problems were as follows:


JP5 I used an ethernet cable.  The light green and light blue wires were crossed.  This was barely discernable and I had to resort to busing things out to find this out. 


BTW I also found out that two of my three step drives (the im483) are defective...  So I will be getting a kstep from you.


Thanks again